Reading TOO MUCH Into Something Keller Stated - Jamin Huber

This is a work in progress.  I give Jamin Huber credit for at least reading "The Reason For God" as Stephen Macasil didn't even bother to read the book but based all of this critiques of the book on book reviews (second hand sources).  None of the rest, the main charge filed against Stephen Macasil by several blogs was that Stephen Macasil read too much into statements made in book reviews and saw controversy that really didn't exist.  Jamin Huber appears to be another Stephen Macasil?  However, at least Jamin Huber read the book and didn't base his blog posting questioning the book on book reviews.

Yes, Jamin Huber this is very old news which has already been blogged about and found to be nothing all that controversial.

Main issue on blogs is that Tim Keller doesn't believe in a literal 6 days of creation of 24 hour duration each.  Since the year of our Lord 1980 this is not a popular position to take thanks to the many para-church creation ministries.  John Frame addressed that matter with other controversial issues in the Reformed Faith Community in his article "Machen's Warrior Children".

12. The Days of Creation
            As in the broader evangelical world, the interpretation of Genesis 1 has been controversial in Reformed circles. Nevertheless, there has been relative peace and tolerance over this issue until recently. A number of Old Princeton professors, including Charles and A. A. Hodge, B. B. Warfield, J. Gresham Machen, and Oswald T. Allis, held that the days of creation were not literally twenty-four hours long. Edward J. Young, who taught Old Testament at Westminster for many years, held that the days referred to long ages of time. [40] In 1957, Meredith G. Kline published an article, “Because it Had Not Rained,” [41] arguing not only that the days were non-literal, but that the narrative does not even teach a temporal sequence of events. Following N. H. Ridderbos, [42] Kline argued that the list of days is a literary framework that has no implications for the length of time or the sequence of events. So in the Reformed community, some have held to literal days, others to age-long days, and others to symbolic days. These positions coexisted fairly comfortably in Reformed churches until around 1980.
            But since then many have taken up the cause of twenty-four-hour-day creation, [43] and their disciples have followed the twentieth-century Reformed pattern of being militant about their views. Many Christian Reconstructionists have embraced a literal position, joined by many strict subscriptionists (see later discussion) who base their argument on what the writers of the Westminster Confession are likely to have believed. Some presbyteries in the OPC and the RCUS have denied ordination to candidates who reject the literal view of Genesis 1.
            Should one’s view of the length of the creation days be a test of orthodoxy? I think not. The exegetical questions are difficult, and I don’t believe that any other doctrinal questions hinge on them. A non-literal interpretation does not entail, for example, that Adam was anything but a real person, or that human beings evolved from animals.

In a Google+ discussion with Jamin Huber and other AOMIN.ORG channel rats of the radical Watchblogger kind which included rather in your face comments to me by RazorsKiss.  One reason I don't hang out with James White is the radical Watchblogger types that hang out with James White.  I am anti-Watchblogger so I don't hang out with Watchbloggers.  I stay out of the AOMIN.ORG discussion channel as there is too many Watchblogger types that hang out there, but not all fans of James White are Watchbloggers.  Stephen Macasil , Daniel Chew, and TartanArmy are fans of James White and as some who know me know; I am a critic of all three as they are Watchbloggers.  TartanArmy and I have not spoken for years due to disagreements on various discussion threads on issues that he had become rather Calvinist Pharisee about.

I often state that I love James White but his channel rats I cannot stand being anywhere near accept for a quick escape in running as fast as possible to put as much distance from them and me as possible before they have time to label me as being some sort of heretic that needs to repent or burn for eternity.

Since the all knowing genius RazorsKill (aka RazorsKiss but I desire to call him RazorsKill) doesn't believe anything that John Frame writes; I post a link to an article on the WTS website here.  Thanks to the discussion on Google+, I have yet another AOMIN.ORG channel rat that I have added to my list that I don't like for their Watchblogger behavior.  Someday I may post a complete listing of the AOMIN.ORG channel rats that I desire to stay as far away from as possible.

I will be posting more on this matter later, but this is all I have to post at this time.

Jamin Huber's complete blog posting on AOMIN.ORG blog:

The Borderline Compatibility of Keller and Westminster Seminary

08/05/2011 - Jamin Hubner

Probably old news for some, but something hit me in reading Keller's (generally good) book The Reason for God that some might find interesting.

Tim Keller is on the part-time faculty list for Westminster Theological Seminary (PA):


Timothy J. Keller

Adjunct Professor of Practical Theology

B.A., Bucknell University, 1972; M.Div., Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, 1975; D.Min., Westminster Theological Seminary, 1981; Pastoral ministry, Virginia, 1975–1984; Senior Pastor, Redeemer Presbyterian Church, New York City, 1989– ; Westminster, 1984– .
Contributor: Theonomy: A Reformed Critique.


In 2008, Westminster released the document "Affirmations and Denials of Recent Issues" which contained the following:
We affirm that Adam and Eve were real flesh-and-blood individual human beings and that their fall into sin was subsequent to their creation as the first human beings. (WCF 6.1; 7.2; WLC 17.)

We deny that the narrative in Genesis 3 is merely symbolic for what is true of mankind in general.

We affirm that God's acts of creation, as listed in each of the six days of Genesis 1, really happened in space and time. (WCF 4.1; WLC 15.)

We deny that Genesis 1 merely teaches that God made everything.

In 2008, Tim Keller said on page 97-98 of The Reason for God (softcover Riverhead edition):
I personally take the view that Genesis 1 and 2 relate to each other the way Judges 4 and 5 and Exodus 14 and 15. In each couple one chapter describes a historical event and the other is a song or poem about the theological meaning of the event. When reading Judges 4 it is obvious that it is a sober recounting of what happened in the battle, the language is poetic and metaphorical. When Deborah sins that the stars in the heavens came down to fight for the Israelites, we understand that she means that metaphorically. I think Genesis 1 has the earmarks of poetry and is therefore a "song" about the wonder and meaning of God's creation. Genesis 2 is an account of how it happened...For the record I think God guided some kind of process of natural selection, and yet I reject the concept of evolution as All-encompassing Theory.

________________________________________

Posted on Google+ and re-posted here:

In response to AOMIN Channel Rats after a review of blog postings on this matter and their claims during the discussion on Google+ with me. - RZH

In 2008, Westminster released the document "Affirmations and Denials of Recent Issues" which contained the following:

Ironically, it appears to be a response to the issue that WTS has never and continues to not confirm that the six creation days of Genesis 1 were 24 hours in duration each. - RZH

We affirm that Adam and Eve were real flesh-and-blood individual human beings and that their fall into sin was subsequent to their creation as the first human beings. (WCF 6.1; 7.2; WLC 17.)

Adam and Eve are named in Genesis 2 whereas in Genesis 1 it only states that God created male and female. Keller stated that only Genesis 1 was a song or poem whereas Genesis 2 was historical. It is assumed that Keller confirms that Adam was male and Eve was female; but I suppose it could be claimed that Keller may question the genders of Adam and Eve since this was not made clear in "The Reason For God" book. - RZH

We deny that the narrative in Genesis 3 is merely symbolic for what is true of mankind in general.

Tim Keller didn't say anything about Genesis 3 in "The Reason for God" book in the particular chapter quoted. However, he stated that only Genesis 1 was a song or poem which appears to imply strongly that the remainder of Genesis was historical. Therefore, there is no evidence in "The Reason For God" book that Keller considered that Genesis 3 was merely symbolic. - RZH

We affirm that God's acts of creation, as listed in each of the six days of Genesis 1, really happened in space and time. (WCF 4.1; WLC 15.)

Keller confirms in that he stated that Genesis 2 is historical and Genesis 1 which is a poem is to be understood in terms of Genesis 2 which is historical. If the six days of Genesis 1 were 24 hours in duration he does not confirm but WTS believes WCF doesn't make it a requirement to believe in days of creation that are 24 hours long. - RZH

We deny that Genesis 1 merely teaches that God made everything.

Keller to the best of my understanding appears to have no issue with the statement in "The Reason For God" book. It is not clear to me what this statement is designed to deny unless it is evolution but it doesn't appear to deny evolution. I continue to research and think about this one. - RZH

In 2008, Tim Keller said on page 97-98 of The Reason for God (softcover Riverhead edition):
I personally take the view that Genesis 1 and 2 relate to each other the way Judges 4 and 5 and Exodus 14 and 15. In each couple one chapter describes a >historical event< and the other is a >song or poem< about the theological meaning of the event. When reading Judges 4 it is obvious that it is a sober recounting of what happened in the battle, the language is poetic and metaphorical. When Deborah sins that the stars in the heavens came down to fight for the Israelites, we understand that she means that metaphorically. I think Genesis 1 has the earmarks of poetry and is therefore a "song" about the wonder and meaning of God's creation. Genesis 2 is an account of how it happened...For the record I think God guided some kind of process of natural selection, and yet I reject the concept of evolution as All-encompassing Theory.

So far blog articles against Tim Keller that attempt to prove that Genesis 1 is not a poem or song only end up verifying that Keller is right. The arguments that Genesis 1 should be taken literally get rather silly. I continue to study this matter but it appears that Keller has a valid point about Genesis 1. - RZH

Robbed Hell - Satire of Rob Bell Love Wins

Robbed Hell - C.A.S.T. Pearls Presents from Canon Wired on Vimeo.

Problem of the Broken Link to Jason Stellman's Blog From Daniel Chew's (Puritan Reformed) Blog

I know nothing about Peter Leithart.  He may or may not be a defender of the Federal Vision.  Two blogs (Puritan Reformed and God's Hammer) have made an appeal for sending money to Jason Stellman to pay for travel expenses for witnesses to appear at the PCA trial of Peter Leithart.  A weblink is made to Jason Stellman's blog titled Code Creed Cult which is a broken link for both blogs.  One look at Jason Stellman's blog and one wonders what sort of PCA pastor he claims to be?

Perhaps I should be careful of saying too much because Mars Hill in Seattle WA has asked Jason Stellman to do a joint project with them.  This is interesting since this is Mark Driscoll's church and Mark Driscoll is a Baptist connected to PCA's missional Tim Keller and Desiring God's John Piper.  Daniel Chew of Puritian Reformed blog is anti-Tim Keller because he is anti-missional and Mars Hill Church is not only missional but emergent.  You have an anti-Federal Visionist, anti-Missional, anti-Keller, anti-Emergent Daniel Chew asking for money be sent to a missional PCA pastor with connections to Mars Hill Church (Mark Driscoll) emergents to fight the Federal Vision heresy.  

Confused .... well such is the state of modern day Christendom in the USA.  If God wasn't in control; I would be worried. Below is a complete copy of the blog posting on the Puritan Reformed blog.  Strange, I believed that Puritans were Reformed so is a Puritan Reformed more reformed than a Puritan?  Perhaps a Puritian Reformed is more reformed than a Reformed Baptist?   One can never be too Reformed if you are as radical of a Calvinist as Daniel Chew tends to be.        

PCA pastor Jason Stellman raising funds for trial of FV pastor Peter Leithart

PCA pastor Jason Stellman is in the process of raising funds for the prosecution of Federal Visionist Peter Leithart, with the intent to purge at least some of the Federal Vision from the PCA. If anyone desires to contribute to this fund, please make checks payable to:
Exile Presbyterian Church
PMB 132
14241 Woodinville-Duvall Rd.
Woodinville, WA, 98072
Attn: Prosecution Fund
[HT: God's Hammer]

Chris Rosebrough's Controversial Facebook Gallery Photos

Some of the controversial photos of BridgerGate inside Chris Rosebrough's Facebook Photo Gallery.

Chris Rosebrough aka Pirate Christian

Chris Rosebrough on right with Emergent Church Pastors

This is a work in progress which will be updated as I continue my research on Chris Rosebrough.

His many blogs and websites include: Extreme Theology, Fighting for the Faith, Christian Pirate Radio,   Museum of Idolatry, Facebook - Pirate Christian, Twitter  @PirateChristian. and Letter of Marque.

He is referred to as a friend of Ken Silva.  Chris was a contributor to CRN (Christian Research Network) until the recent  BridgerGate controversy developed.  There has been controversy for sometime over his photos with various emerging church leaders.


I am still researching and attempting to figure out the Chris Rosebrough conflict concerning if Rick Warren teaches salvation by works reported on this website.  

He can be safety called a "Watchblogger" specializing on the Emergent or Emerging Church, and the Purpose Driven Church movement of Rick Warren.  


Chris is a Lutheran but likes Michael Horton who is a confused Calvinist per Lutheran standards.  Lutherans typically refer to Calvinist as radical reformers with the view that Lutherans are the more conservative reformers of the Reformation.  Calvinist tend to view Lutherans as insufficiently reformed from the Roman Catholic faith.

Chris Rosebrough holds a degree in Religious Studies and Biblical Languages from Concordia University in Irvine, California and a Masters Degree in Business Administration from Pepperdine University.  Pepperdine University historically has a connection with the American Restoration (Stone-Campbell) Movement and its business courses are highly regarded.  He has been a long contributor to Worldview Times.


For awhile when he lived in California, Chris taught at Capo Valley Church in San Juan Capistrano, California.  Chris moved to Indiana after his company went into bankruptcy.  

Chris Rosebrough worked for National Medical Registry Inc, located at 216 West Perkins Street in Ukiah, CA 95482-4800 for awhile before leaving to create his own company.  National Medical Registry Inc. company website is located here.  Chris Rosebrough became CEO of Vendtegrity, a software company that sells to hospitals. 

Vendtegrity, LLC is located at 10 Calle Prospero San Clemente, CA 92673. The officers include Chris Rosebrough, Phil Hodge. Vendtegrity, LLC was incorporated on Wednesday, December 01, 2004 in the State of CA and is currently bankrupt. (Agent Resigned 02-04-2009) represents Vendtegrity, LLC as their registered agent. Vendtegrity is bankrupt and no longer exists.  For awhile Chris Rosebrough's Pirate Christian websites shared webspace storage with websites connected to the bankrupt Vendtegrity, LLC.  The Vendtegrity, LLC website information now appears to be almost totally removed from the internet.

VMS in Healthcare 

Slow to catch on, but interest rising 

Management of supplemental staff via automated procurement software - a vendor management system - is a trend emerging in the healthcare industry. Despite healthcare being more reluctant than some industries to jump into e-procurement, staffing companies and software sellers agree that more of the dollars spent on contingent labor used in hospitals and other facilities is likely to flow through a VMS. 

"Vendor management continues to be an important trend within our acute care customer base," Cross Country Healthcare Inc. CEO Joseph Boshart told Staffing Industry Healthcare News earlier this year. 

Added Leanne Oatman, VP of sales and customer services at Comforce Inc.: "The interest is greater than we've ever seen, especially as hospitals try to decrease the amount of staffing utilization." 

To date, the VMS market in U.S. healthcare staffing is about $100 million, if calculated at about 1% of the total revenue in the sector ($10.5 billion), which several sources said would be a good estimate. The penetration rate is below 2%: Sources said only 500 to 1,000 U.S. hospitals have a VMS installed; that's out of about 5,800 hospitals total, not including other facilities such as surgery centers. And Staffing Industry Analysts research shows that only about 12% of healthcare industry customers that buy supplemental staffing services plan to buy a VMS in the next two years.

Slow start 

Unlike other industries that use contingent workers, healthcare has been slow to implement e-procurement. "They're not as friendly toward technology," said Jason Lander, founder of ShiftWise, a VMS sold directly to hospitals. ShiftWise is used in almost 300 facilities and recently licensed its product for Cross Country to sell. 

Many hospitals don't understand how getting a staffing company involved in managing temporary workers will help save dollars, when what they really want to do is eliminate agency nurses altogether, said Bob Livonius, CEO of Nursefinders Inc., a staffing company that sells a VMS. "The whole idea of letting the fox in the henhouse is a difficult sell. Most hospitals are looking to reduce temporary labor, and the client doesn't view spending money [on a VMS] as doing that." 

Ed Scott, VP and general manager of the per diem division at InteliStaf Inc., added that education is key. "Many hospitals are not that well-versed in what these offerings bring to them," he said. InteliStaf also sells staffing management products.

Significant savings 

But optimism reigns among sellers of VMS who see rapid growth. One is Chris Rosebrough, CEO of Vendtegrity, a software company that sells to hospitals. He predicts that 30% of the healthcare supplemental staffing market will be managed by VMS by 2010. 

Livonius concurs: "It wouldn't be unrealistic, and it could be even earlier than that," he said. Of Nursefinders' $350 million in sales, about $90 million comes from VMS or related workforce solutions business, Livonius said. Rosebrough said Vendtegrity's hospital installations, which manage about $16 million in contingent spending, should double this year to six. "More and more hospitals I talk to are interested in VMS," Rosebrough said. 

VMS proponents say the value proposition for hospitals can't be ignored. For one small hospital, Vendtegrity saved $500 million in temporary labor spending in 12 months, Rosebrough said. At Hoag Memorial Hospital Presbyterian in Newport Beach CA, Comforce's VMS reduced agency spending more than 70%, Oatman said. 

Not all savings will be as dramatic, depending on the size of the hospital and how many temporary workers it uses. Chris Moseley, VP of labor services for Broadlane, a technology company that sells a VMS, said that in most cases savings may range from 6% to as high as 18% a year. Broadlane products are used in 180 acute care facilities.

Ingrid Schlueter

This posting is a work in progress as it will be updated as I obtain more information.

Ingrid Schlueter has been producer and co-host of the Crosstalk Radio Talk Show on the VCY America Radio Network. She is author of numerous articles on current issues and is a regular columnist for Wisconsin Christian News. 

Ingrid has had many blogs starting it appears with the Blogger blog titled Slice of Laodicea which still exists but it was replaced with a Wordpress blog located at http://www.sliceoflaodicea.com which no longer exists.  Her most recent blog named CrossTalk has been recently deleted for reasons connected to the current "Bridger" controversy.  A new CrossTalk blog is in the process of being developed.

Ingrid's father (Victor "Vic" Carl Eliason) is the head of VCY America.  


Chris Rosebrough of "Extreme Theology" blog reports on the closing of "Slice of Laodicea" blog at this location.  

Dr. Ergun Caner (satire)